Michael Laws and Joe Karam - the debate

adressing Freds comment, the bloody handprint was NOT tested and was reported to not even resemble blood in colour. It could easily be explained as ink from the newspaper. Writen in Margerets diary stated david always did the washing. So it does not seem so farfetched as to suggest that a person in a state of shock that you and I have no way of comprehending could have taken comfort in following there usual routine. The bruise on David's head could have happened when he colapsed. The scratch marks on his chest could be a result of a desperate david bain struggeling to breath which is clear to hear on the 111 call. Your statement about the comfortability of Robyn Bain when killing himself shouldn't even be an issue. It was a position that could easily be performed and I highly doubt Robyn Bain would have felt the need to go out and buy a new gun because he didn't want to have to tilt his head. A full bladda is the last thing on your mind when you are in a stressful situation, I easily forget or pushpast mine when deep in work. You also refer to Robyn Bain as a 'sickly man'. Sick mentally? yes but where is your evidence he was sick physically? he was a tall 75 kilo man who could have easily over powered a 14 year old boy whom has already gained a gunshot wound. The lense of David's glasses that was found in Stephen's room is irrelivant as it was found under clothes and covered in dust. Fred you also said he should have noticed if his lense was missing and seeked to find it if it was left in Stephen's room for so long, well if you had researched more you would learn that they are not his regular glasses as his were getting repaired at this time. Whitinesses also stated because of this David did not wear glasses the day before this. If Laniet was lying about an insistual relationship with her father, it could also be said she was lying about being sceared of David Bain.I would like to hear your views on the bloody footprint that was measured at 280 mm while David Bain measures at 300 mm as opposed to Robin who measures in at 270 mm. It is not so outrageous to suggest someone wishes to wash themself from blood in order to be tidy before you end your own life. He may have expected to have a clean shooting spree as everyone slept but was taken back by Stephen's struggle. We cannot argue the fact that 90% of murders and suicides leave no identible fingerprints on the gun. This is crucial information that seems to be so easily overlooked.

Nobody here is qualified to comment,the courts have spoken, waste of air debating the subject.
Would you give David a job?

Is amazing that joe karam thinks:

That the facial bruises were from "..when david fainted and banged the right side on his head against the wall", even though one large bruise is an entirely rectangular impression completely inconsistent with one banging their head against a wall.

picture of rectangular bruising -

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zGKapt7iWLI/TFw1L8vnRVI/AAAAAAAAAtQ/X8L7malRD80/s0/bain%20bruises3.jpg


That David didn't wear Sargaret's glasses, even though his face retained the mark of a nose rest visible in doctor's examination photo that match Margaret's glasses quite exactingly -

picture of mark suggesting David wore Margaret's glasses -

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_zGKapt7iWLI/S-1CLrScZvI/AAAAAAAAAqI/2YIm7xhnqOA/s0/bain-glasses5.gif


That a detailed rape plan in a note book using a newspaper run as an abili is just normal 17 year hormonally emhanced hijinks lol...



Joe probably even believes that, the 2 metre plus displacement of Robin's head away from curtain after the suicide shot is an entirely reasonable proposition, even though defence's scenarios have Robin's centre of mass falling towards curtains when equilibrium is disturbed. A .22's ~1kgms-1 of momentum ain't gunna move Robin's 75kg centre of mass the requisite 1.5m in the 1/2 a second it takes gravity to bring him down - it's 2 orders of magnitude too little!!

"Even a .50 Caliber bullet does not have the momentum to knock a person backwards." -

http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Even+a+%2E50+Caliber+bullet+does+not+have+the+momentum+to+knock+a+person+backwards%2E

1:27 - Regarding the question, "Was there a third person?" Joe Karam responds, "The police investigation was so hopeless that we will never know. But on all the evidence that they did manage to collect, there was no evidence that there was a third person." Since the jury found that the crown case did not prove beyond reasonable doubt that David Bain did it and would probably be the same outcome for Robin Bain as well; I had always thought there must have been a third person. Since the police investigation was so hopeless and they only collected evidence that would point to Robin or David; were the police ever investigated since they destroyed evidence in this case? If so, where are the transcripts for this?

A few thoughts...............So what do you have to beleive, to think Robin was the killer. This list is not comprehensive, and is even a bit repetitive. But here goes: 1. It was a lucky guess when David Bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies 2. Again a lucky guess hen DB told police officer they are all dead 3. The 25 minute gap between DB finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood. 4. The bruise on David’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence 5. The lens from his glasses found in Stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed OR someone else had borrowed the glasses 6. The lack of fresh injuries on Robin despite the massive struggle with Stephen is just the product of healthy living 7. David’s finger prints on gun are from a previous time 8. David telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience 9. Stephen’s blood on David’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – OR someone else borrowed his clothes 10. Robin managed to execute his family on a full bladder 11. The lock and key to the rifle being found in David’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there 12. Robin decided to wash David’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under Steven’s finger nails 13. David’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies 14. The Ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion Bain was pretending to have a fit 15. Robin Bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide 16. That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared David. 17. Also that having just shot his family, and knowing David was due home, that Robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message 18. Robin would decide David deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder 19. Robin Bain placed fibres from Davids jersey under Stephen’s finger nails 20. Robin Bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible? 21. That Robin Bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular Stephen Bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey before killing himself? 22. That there is a logical reason that David Bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run. 23. That Robin Bain put blood on the inside of David’s duvet and on his light switch 24. That there is an innocent explanation for why David says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine. 25. That Laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of David 26. That the “family meeting” David called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill. 27. That Robin Bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head. 28. That even though David told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided David was the only one who deserved to live 29. That David either imagined hearing Laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death 30. That Laniet allegations of incent with Robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half. 31. That Robin Bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or DNA being left at the scene. 32. That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders Bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi. 33. That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to Robin was not placed there by David but fell onto its edge from Robin’s arms. 34. That a sickly Robin Bain managed to overpower his teendage son who put up a furious fight 35. That Robin Bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself

Joe Karem won't let anyone else have an honest opinion in this debate and interjects or talks over Michael Laws or anyone else that wants to have a different opinion to his. David is GUILTY. No compensation.

I wonder why karam is such a supporter of david bain David admitted in the 1st trial to hearing lianets dying gurgles, only the killer could have heard that! We need to fight against any application for any money being paid out to Karam and Bain.The investgate programe said it all!

It is obvious Michael Laws does not want to listen to reason and to expert forensic evidence. God help us if he ever gets into parliament.

In my opinion, David Bain killed everyone and Karam has entrenched himself into an unreversable position that will see him lose to much face. David is the Killer

I only want to here from one person saying he did not do it!
I have never heard these words ever muttered from his mouth!
This debate is a nonsense and only proves that motives have moved away from the real issue versus two roosters having a fight!!!When will David Bain actually tell us the truth and speak though his eyes versus the lips of others???